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January 10, 2006

Comments

jym

As a French person who wants (who tries) to write proper English, the use of 'that' vs 'which' was unclear until I saw your topic. Thanks. jym

Brian May

I think you are wrong about "That" and "Which". Your views follow some previous writers on the subject, but, in my opinion, you have confused the change of meaning which the commas introduce with the effect of the words themselves. I believe you are right only in part ... "That' cannot be used for a non-rstrictuve clause, but, without commas, it is perfectly legimite to use "which" to introduce a restrictive clause. there are many examples in English literature, from Dickens onwards. You are making a false rule here. The words which you are using will confuse some people !!!

Cheers

brian

Lynn

Hi, Brian. Thank you for your opinion. Do any current reference books agree with you? All the books in my library support my explanation, so it would help me to know your sources.

Although I appreciate his writing, I don't count Charles Dickens as a resource for 21st-century business writers.

Jim Harvie

I loved everything you wrote until I got to not counting Charles Dickens as a resourse for 21st-century business writers. That was a developing trend in the 20th century, I thought we had progressed from it.
This makes me disengage.

Lynn

Jim, thank you for your views. You helped me realize that I had not been explicit in my previous comment. I should have written "I don't count Charles Dickens as a GRAMMAR resource for 21st-century business writers."

Language and writing have evolved since the 19th century, when Dickens was writing. As a 21st-century business writer, I would not copy his punctuation or his grammar. Instead I use current business writing guides.

Do you recommend a different approach?

Manuel

UK oxford says which is allowed just as Brian stated.

http://www.askoxford.com/betterwriting/classicerrors/grammartips/whichorthat?view=uk

Mimsys Wallows

I agree with Lynn, and I believe The Complete Plain Words also concurs.

Mimsys Wallows

Sir Ernest Gowers, in The Complete Plain Words: 'That cannot be used as a commenting clause; the relative must be which. With a defining clause either which or that is permissible. When in a defining clause the relative is in the objective case, it can be left out altogether. Thus we have three variants.'

Lynn Gaertner-Johnston

Mimsys, I appreciate your contributing. I am fairly certain, though, that your example does not support my view. Sir Ernest Gowers seems to state that both "that" and "which" are correct with restrictive clauses. (He calls them "defining clauses.")

This appears to be a UK vs. US distinction. American references do not recommend "which" for restrictive clauses.

Lynn

Michael A

I found this very helpful and it makes my letters feel a bit more natural. Thanks!

The Peasant

I am still confused!

Lynn Gaertner-Johnston

If you are confused, just write short sentences without "that" and "which" clauses attached.

Lynn

Janet

I agree that the United States and the United Kingdom do not write, or speak the same English. Therefore, the UK opinions will definately differ from those of us from the good ol' US.

Anon

Very amusing comment, Lyn, regarding 'The Peasant's' post. The problem with avoiding the use of 'that' and 'which' in your sentences is that you risk sounding like a telegrapher!

Janet: what you say is true, however 'definitely' is spelled the same in both countries. Without an 'a'.

jamie

Anon,

You're right about the spelling; however, a conjunctive adverb connecting two independent clauses is preceded by a semi-colon and followed by a comma.

Almost always imperfectly,

Jamie

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